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Frank Ahrens Craig Cola/washingtonpost.com

With Frank Ahrens
Washington Post Staff Writer

Frank Ahrens covers radio for The Washington Post. His column--"The Listener"--appears every other Tuesday in the Style section. Frank is also a general assignment feature writer, and his reporting subjects have included everything from minivans to murders, from baseball to bandwidth.

If you're wondering about the inner workings of radio in Washington, around the country and on the Web, or want to know what Frank really thinks of minivans, then don't touch that dial . . . um, mouse! Please join us for this discussion:

Here is a transcript of today's discussion:

washingtonpost.com: Good afternoon. What's on your mind today Frank?

Frank Ahrens: Greetings to everyone and thanks for joining in today.
In today’s column, I wrote about the mess at Pacifica Radio (heard locally on WPFW) and proposed a novel and, I hope, provocative solution to the problem. Please feel free to discuss.
Hot off the press, however (coming in the fax as as speak) are the the most recent Arbitron ratings reports, covering last fall. I’ll have a story in tomorrow’s paper about them, per usual, but can give you a little taste of them.
In the overall rankings—all listeners age 12 and over—there is a surprise. Typically, the top three spots are some combination of WHUR, WPGC and WKYS. This time, WJFK breaks into that trifecta, landing at No. 2. That’s the station of Howard Stern, G. Gordon Liddy, Don and Mike and the Sports Junkies. Here’s the top 10:
1. WPGC
2. WJFK
3. WHUR
4. WKYS
5. WASH
6. WWDC
7. WRQX
8. WMZQ
9. WGMS
10. WMMJ

Let’s go!

Warrenton, VA: Frank, that so called controversy at DC101 was the most contrived bad theater I have seen. It was as genuine as an interview with Hulk Hogan. Did you ever confirm it was merely a cheap ratings ploy?

Frank Ahrens: That was a tricky story for me. I got lots of calls and e-mails about it and knew that I had to write something about it because it happened and people wanted to know. On the other hand, I've covered radio long enough to see plenty of stunts and, quite frankly, to be lied to by raido station execs. So I was in a tough position. I called a friend who has worked in local radio for a long time and knows the principals and sounded the source out. They said of course it could be a stunt but that their gut suggested it probably wasn't, simply because it was resolved so quickly and not strung out. I went with what I had--all the principals swearing to its authenticity. If someone calls me and offers proof that it was a stunt, then I will gladly write that.

Detroit, MI: Gen X Guy here -wink-

Whats the deal with satellite radio? Why do people think this will change radio? Do they realize Clear Channel is a major investor in XM? It seems like much to do about nothing. Music Choice was supposed to change the way people listened at home and it has yet to take off. I find it hard to believe satellite will change anything especially when it is programmed by the same people who are doing radio right now and everybody complains about it. Time to break out the CD's on the long road trips!

Frank Ahrens: Hiya, Detroit. Maybe you I need to spin off a dating service on the side, make a few more clams, and hook you up with Gen X Gurl.
I think both satellite companies, XM Radio and Sirius, will launch and will get subscribers. Most folks think the technology will work. Also, the services will appeal not only to folks driving across country who keep losing signals, but to those who aren't getting the extra-niched programming they want--adult alternative, deep cuts classic rock, spanish-language talk--on their local staitons. Each service promises about 100 stations, roughly 50 talk and 50 music. Both services say they only need 1 or 2 million subscirbers to make money. Well, at least that's what they're telling their investors. But 100 channels is a lot of choice for 10 bucks a month.

Washington,DC: What place did 99.5 come in during the last rating period?

Frank Ahrens: The faxes are still coming in...but I have Jam'n Oldies at 16th place among all listeners. But that's not their main target audience. When my 25-54 demographic comes in, I'll get back to you.

Washington, DC: Despite your disclaimers to the contrary, don't you feel at least a little as though the whole Elliott-DC101 imbroglio was a bit of a hype? And that your article was exactly the kind of PR move that they were hoping to score? After all, -1- the alleged infraction was relatively minor; -2- a one-day suspension is pretty lame; and -3- management could have easily forced Elliott's hand on the No-Ad day through stealthy engineering tricks.

Frank Ahrens: Hey, like I said: If someone comes forward with proof I can print, I'll write it.

Burke, VA: Who cares about a marginalized bunch of old Lefties ? Most of us are in our cars by 6am sitting in hellish traffic. Why don't you write about morning radio in real radio stations ? Do you fight traffic, Frank? Do you have to get up at oh-dark-thirty like the rest of us out here?

Frank Ahrens: Hahaha! Come the revolution, you and your fossil-fuel burning, environment-destroying, individual-rights-promoting automobiles will be outlawed and you will be sucked into the collective and gladly take public transportation every day to a glorious tractor factory!

Falls Church, VA: Is playing music in the morning that boring for most listeners? I would much prefer that to the comedy shows that aren't funny.

Frank Ahrens: Depends on whom you talk to. Some stations bet the farm on morning personalities--that's the industry standard--hosts like Howard Stern and Donnie Simpson and Elliot Segal and even Bob Edwards. But other stations think folks don't want to hear blab-blab-blabbing and play music. If your'e in that category, check out stations like WARW that just play music and traffic in the a.m. drive.

Arlington, VA: I regularly listen to WRNR -albeit in mono 'cause the signal just doesn't quite make it- and I generally like what I hear. But somehow they just don't strike me as really being "progressive free-form radio" as they sometimes claim. It's more like middle-class white people's progressive -i.e., neo-folkie, R&B, bluesy, power pop- which their "Rock 'n' Roots" moniker seems to cover. So their probably more AAA than progressive. As for being free-form, I definitely hear echoes of a playlist after listening for a couple days in a row. -Either that or their jocks have very similar tastes.- Also, I don't know about anyone else but I find their jocks to be kind of bland and occasionally indistingtuishable -excepting Damian, of course- and only partly knowledgeable on the music front. I'm not asking for shock jocks or personalities -though I did grow up on WABC and WNEW-FM so I have a bit of a soft spot there- but a little less laid-back would go a long way. Any thoughts?

Frank Ahrens: This is a fine critique of a station that stands out among local commercial stations. First off, it has to make money, so there are some hints of commercial radio--playlists and so forth. Also, even tho they advertise themselves as "free-form," and, compared to some tightly formatted other stations, they are, they still have a target market, whick I think you've pegged pretty well. I can't think of a truly free-form station where you'll hear Mozart followed by Sun Ra followed by ABBA followed by Robert Johnson followed by Manheim Steamroller.

Rockville,MD: Frank, what do you think of the radio-tv hybrid thing Don Imus and others are doing? I must admit I've tuned in to MSNBC to watch, but lost interest after a few minutes, especially when you realize they're not playing at all to the tv audience. Its a weird idea. What's the rationale? MSNBC can't be that desparate for stuff.

Frank Ahrens: Aren't radio shows on TV just a strange idea? I mean, with Howard Stern's show, you sort of get it--he has strippers in bikinis on. That's at least good TV--there's something to see. But when Imus is on, it reminds me of the C-Span episodes when they sit in radio host studios, like Howie Carr's up in Boston, and just show him talking into a mike. Woo, boy--that's compelling TV! "C-Span, 10 a.m.--noon: A guy talking into a mike."
It's really all about cross-promotion and branding. Imus is a brand name, and the more widely you can distribute that brand name--TV, radio, print, Internet, wherever--the broader the market you can tell advertisers you're reaching.

Washington, DC: Which one of the McDonaldland characters do you believe you resemble most, Mayor McCheese or the Hamburglar?

Frank Ahrens: The Hamburgler, as played by Private Pyle in "Full Metal Jacket."

Bert in Manassas, VA: Sometimes I like to think Don Geronimo of the WJFK "Don and Mike Show" complain so that they have something to talk about. Yet on the issue of their names not appearing in the Washington Post in the radio listings, it seems to have happened one too many times for it to be just an honest mistake by the fine folks at the Washington Post. What's the "real" story on those radio listings and does someone have a grudge against them with respect to that issue ?

Frank Ahrens: Dag, you ratted us out! The vast conspiracy against Don & Mike has been discovered! We hate them! We discriminate against them! And we love it! Bwa-hahahahahaha!!
Ahem. The truth? The last lines of the radio listings the day in question (the day Don & Mike reamed me a new one on their show) was cut out for space by our copy desk at night. Purely a space issue. Sorry to take away the ammunition. (I swear, I ought to charge Don & Mike for the amount of material I give them.)

OLD TOWN ALEX.: If you could kill any Washington-Baltimore DJ -or merely throw them into the abyss of off-air-obscurity-, because of their lack of talent, obnoxiousness, or insipid content, who would it be?

Frank Ahrens: Ha. You're not gonna get me on this one. But let's raise a little ruckus and throw this open to listeners: If you could, as the Smiths once sang, "Hang the Deejay," whom would it be?

Alexandria: You talked about having guests on these chats ? How about my two favorite traffic reporters, Bob Marbourg and Lisa Baden ? I don't think you, Frank, realize how much traffic is a part of our lives. Oh, and how come Dr, Gridlock isn't on the radio ?

Frank Ahrens: Hey, that's a good idea. Soon, I wanted to have the two big news chiefs on--John Butler from WMAL and Jim Farley from WTOP--but having Bob and Lisa on would be maybe even more interesting, because they're personalities that lots of folks know. I'll ask them if they want to do it. Thanks!

Washington, DC: Who makes the best aluminum-foil hats, Reynolds or Alcoa?

Frank Ahrens: I find that Reynolds makes a fine hat-lining that generally blocks the CIA transmissions into my brain.

Herndon, VA: Ya know....after that debacle last week on DC101's morning show, I decided to try GCrash's morning show on HFS. And I liked it, much to my surprise. I wasn't a huge fan of hers when she was on at night, but now I am a fan of her show.

You go, grrl.

Frank Ahrens: Thanks for the input. I've alwasy thought Gina was a talent (full disclosure--we both attended West Virginia University, but she was there after me) and am glad to see she's getting to do something other than play "Loveline," which used to be her nighttime spot.

Laurel, MD: Hi, Frank. This is your ham friend who doesn't get out that often.

I used to do news for Pacifica's WBAI-FM in New York City in the 1980's, and there was office politics back then, as well as political purges - but never so nasty as today's stuff. They'd get rid of a station manager, but not the whole staff. But it was fun. We'd play music that no one would ever do, read stuff no one else would do, and cover subjects that NPR wouldn't dare touch because it would upset listeners.

You might note that if KPFA's frequency is worth a fortune in the Coast, WBAI's frequency in NYC, smack dab in the middle of the commercial band, is worth millions.

I can see selling off WBAI's frequency and Pacifica going low power. Or trying.

Frank Ahrens: Hi, Laurel. This is a really good posting. As to what Pacifica is going to do, that's anyone's guess. I got a call from a former staffer today wondering if my column was a presage to Pacifica accepting corporate money. There are elements within Pacifica that want to sell off the stations. There is active revolt in a lot of stations. They are crimped for money. And the Pacifica execs, folks like Lynn Chadwick, are good friends with NPR honchos like Kevin Klose, fueling the conspiracy theories that Pacifica simply wants to be folded into NPR. It's quite a cauldron of news.

McLean, VA: In the past, you have made references to WTEM's miniscule market share. Has any of that changed in the recent ratings? Does the obvious WTEM demographic -sports fans -- males 20-60- make the ratings less relevant for a station like WTEM to sell advertising -e.g., beer, bars and betting services-?

Frank Ahrens: In today's ratings, WTEM checks in at 20th for listeners 25-54 across all times of day--exactly where they were one year ago. For men 25-54, they were 16th, up one from a year ago. I see no movement. Still, the station billed $5.5 million in 1998, according to one report, which ain't bad.

Middletown, MD Babyboom Man: Hey Frank buddy, I'm the guy who you have so graciously mentioned several time as having deciphered WMAL's call letters as "We're Mostly All Limbaugh." I guess I have a fixation with them, but being a long-time listener,I have been following their slide into the right-wing black hole. I applaud their honesty about being completely driven by the bottom line, crass business decisions without regard to balanced content. I had to laugh when you reported that Chris Core is considered by some to be too liberal, kind of like saying George Patton was a Nazi-symp. But continuing, any buzz aout how he is doing on his "Chris Core Show" so far? It's O.K. but a little boring for PM drive time. Maybe I missed it, but any word on the line-up for 7 pm to midnight? Pat Buchanan? Bob Dornan?

Frank Ahrens: Howdy, Mr. Boom. Too early to see how Chris is doing on his own. I have the Stevens and Core show at 16th place among all listeners 25-54, which is down two places from a year ago.

Fairfax, VA: Hi there! How does Jim Rome do on WTEM? Does his national TV show help his ratings? And, finally, how does he compare in ratings to the local oriented talent on WTEM? Thanks, love the column!

Frank Ahrens: Jim Rome's show hit at 17th place, people 25-54, up three from a year ago (was he on then?) As for comparing to local talents, all of the WTEM hosts hit at about the same place.

Berkeley, California: Hi, Frank,

Larry Bensky here, former National Affairs correpondent for Pacifica, and host of the national talk show, "Living Room," once heard on WPFW.

You are correct: Pacifica radio is falling apart. But your purported solution would make things worse. Because Pacifica is NOT lacking for money - it always has managed to raise what it needs, albeit just eough to live frugally, not on a corporate level. And it raises this money when it does what it was designed to do: serve as an ALTERNATIVE to homogenized, profit-centered broadcasting.

With the advent of the current board chair and executive director, half a century of principled broadcasting - based on community control and free, unfettered speech - went out the window.

Your solution - begging for money from corporate sponsors - would make things worse.
How much of the insightful, alternative coverage you seem to value do you think a corporate-funded KPFA or WPFW would be able to do about, say, a corporate criminal like Archer-Daniels-Midland, who sponsor PBS and NPR programs so heavily? About as much as PBS and NPR do, which is to say, none.

As I write, the local Pacifica station here in Berkeley is having yet another successful on-air fund drive, raising over $40,000 a day with a simple message: keep community control of this station alive, and help us beat back the assault from the newly corporatized national Pacifica structure, with its closed books, secret meetings, and self-perpetuating board of directors.

We invite you to join us in that effort.
For further information, please consult our web site, www.savepacifica.net

Best,
Larry Bensky

Frank Ahrens: Hi, Larry, and thanks for the posting. My solution was to give Pacifica a cash infusion that would not jeopardize any of their properties and allow them to hire more reporters, etc., expand their community coverage. I remain convinced that effective firewalls could be raised to prevent editorial tampering. Also, to get past the stage where it is now: new folks who tune in to Pacifica stations are as likely to hear good programming as hearing a host talking about the internal conflicts or that report being yanked off the air. Neither is good radio. But I appreciate your posting.

Washington, DC: Frank:

Thanks much for listing the URL for KFOG in San Francisco. Last time I was in the Bay area, I remember thinking how good the radio seemed compared to DC, and this was one of the reasons why. I've got it on at work now -- lots of songs I haven't heard in years, plus some I've never heard at all. All you DC playlist managers, listen up! I'm a 32 year old guy with plenty of discretionary income, and the radio around here sucks! I'm stuck with classical and the public radio stations, because that's the only thing that's listenable.

As for which DJ's to hang, I'd say most of them. I've had it with all those mellifluous but vapid voices trying to sound like they've got attitude. Either play the music and shut up, or tell me something interesting -- and by interesting I don't mean the bottom feeder stuff you get from the likes of Don and Mike.

Frank Ahrens: Thanks for the comments--you are a mighty market force that ought to be paid attention to.

Fairfax, VA: I'm from the Midwest and I've always liked radio. The Chicago and Milwaukee radio stations always advertised heavily in print and on billboards. Here, few radio stations advertise. Why - Is it cost prohibitive?

And, where can I find a listing of stations by frequency - I'd like to listen to some of these you talk about, but I need to know where they are on the dial.

Frank Ahrens: You know, that's a good point. I don't see nearly as much radio advertising on billboards, cabs, buses, etc., hear as I do even in my hometown of Charleston, W.Va. My guess is your guess: cost. And for station listings by frequency, the Style section runs frequency listings nearly every day (when there's space) and they're also on the Web site you're reading this on. And for out-of-town stations, check out www.broadcast.com or www.radio-directory.com.

Bethesda: How did Rush Limbaugh do in this ratings book ? Who does better: WMAL or WTOP ?

Frank Ahrens: Rush did very well--WMAL during that daypart, as the industry calls it, ranked 4th among men 25-54, his target audience. Among all listeners, 12 years and older, WTOP ranked 6th, WMAL was 7th.

Washington,DC: Wait a second... how can Don and Mike be "cut off" from the listings when there are shows after theirs, there are stations after theirs on the radio position, and they could generally be listed under D" if done alphabetically. I think this excuse comes up on the short end of the stick.

Frank Ahrens: This is the final answer, once and for all, believe it or don't: there is not conspiracy against Don & Mike. They were omitted purely by chance, not by design. And that's all I'm going to say about this increasingly tedious subject.

Arlington, VA: Hang all the DJs on the Oldies stations. They speak with all the sincerity of Kathy Lee Gifford at Cody's horseback riding show.

Frank Ahrens: Hahaha! Great line!

Santa Rosa, CA: Hi Frank -- Thanks for doing this. I'd like to know if anyone listens to WPFW? Pacifica tells us "old lefties on the left coast" that WPFW is a "model" station -- that it is a big success for "diversity programming" & that it proves they were right to lock out & arrest the KPFA -Berkeley- staff for objecting to Pacifica's move to less politically challenging programming. Do you think there is a need in the DC area for "alternative" news analysis? What about programming for the progressive community?

Frank Ahrens: Hi, Santa Rosa. WPFW gets decent ratings for a public station. I'm told by their 85-year-old personality, Dorothy Healy, a former communist party official in California (no kidding) that the station just completed its best fund-raising drive in years. (She also told me she's gonna light me up and down on her show for today's column.) Also, WPFW is about the only station left in D.C. that plays authentic jazz (not commercial Smooth Jazz), which is a true gift, considering D.C. lost its other jazz station mroe than a year ago. Also, they do community and political programming for the large black listenership. However, the station execs have run an iron ship regarding this whole year-long controversy and have pulled programming that has tried to cover it and have canceled "CounterSpin" the show that covers the media. You can listen for yourself, though, and make up your own mind: they stream their audio. Web site is www.wpfw.org.

Washington, DC: I interned at a DC station many years ago and asked the PD on why they didn't advertise on billboards...his answer was pretty basic: there aren't many billboard on which to place ads.

Frank Ahrens: Huh. Just goes to prove Occam's Razor: All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the best.

Rockville, MD: I'm with the KFOG listener. Hang em all. DC seems unable to break out of the 70's box which thinks: cool music + screaming guy between songs + airhead female sidekick + too many ads + much bragging about how many they play in a row = good radio. They gotta be losing listeners by the hoard as this new technology offers people more choices. Wake up!

Frank Ahrens: Hahaha! From now on, we'll call this Rockville's Radio Formula.

San Jose, CA: You have a new feature about interesting radio stations online. While I have no affilliation with station, the most bizarre station I have ever heard is KPIG in Freedom, California. Located at www.kpig.com, it is a fusion between country, folk, Dr. Demento, pop and oldies.
They do seem to have a pig fetish though. From a techhie point of view, it is pretty cool because there is a DJ-Cam. On Sundays, they broadcast live local music which is really neat. They also claim to be one of the first Internet broadcasters.

Have you ever heard of it?

Frank Ahrens: Hey, thanks, San Jose. Haven't heard of this station but will check it out. Thanks much for the posting.
Pigs, eh?

Washington, DC: Wow. WMMJ cracks the Top 10. Is that unusual, and if so, what does that mean for Jammin' Oldies? Perhaps it's not beating the pants off its competition after all.

Frank Ahrens: WMMJ is a solid property. They always perform. Now that Jam'n has been in the market for nearly a year, folks have checked it out--there was an initial stream from WMMJ to Jam'n--but maybe the novelty has worn off and people are resettling.

Washington, DC: Nice piece today on Pacifica, Frank. I'm a WPFW member, but the politics of the station take a backseat to the drivetime jazz music, which is what I love.

Will the uproar have any noticeable affect on the amount of jazz programming at WPFW? Any talk of cutting back news programming and replacing it with jazz? The station seems to increase the amount of music programming during its pledge drives, one of which is ongoing. The more jazz, the better, I say, although I find Pacifica's take on the news to be refreshing.

Frank Ahrens: Thanks for writing. I wish I could answer your question but I can't. I have had no contact with the folks at WPFW since about last summer, when I tried to ask the top two station execs about programming decisions they'd made--why they'd taken certain controversial subjects off the air--and they ended up hanging up on me.

Rockville, MD: Hey Frank, love the chat. I've written in before and just wanted to share this info. Recently, I was called by a marketing group to participate in a paid raido music survey. I go on Thursday.

I believe this is one of those sessions where you get to listen to 3-4 second snippets of three or four songs then rate them for the hosts -"none of the above" is not allowed unfortunately because many of the selections suck-. They compile a music list from these comments and use it to -presumably- program their stations. When they called me, I was asked what station I listened to most -I said 'HFS 'cause I know they wanted to hear that-, so this must be for one of the rock-alt rock-oldies rock stations. I'd be happy to let you know next week how it went.

Frank Ahrens: This is an excellent posting. Please make sure you check in next week with a report. I bet lots of folks would like to hear about this.

Frank Ahrens: That's going to do it for today, folks. This was an especially topical and eclectic discussion--I really enjoyed it. Make sure to tune in next week to read the report from our music survey participant. Lots of questions today, sorry I couldn't get to all of them.
See you next week.

washingtonpost.com: Please join us again next week for another edition of Radio Talk and be sure to check out the new Frank Ahrens Radio Talk archive page. Now you catch up on all of the old shows!

Here's the URL: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveonline/style/ahrens.htm

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